Retarding the camshaft (a higher intake lobe centerline number 108 vs. 104) will generally start the power band later in the RPM range and decrease the cylinder pressure. A cam's lobe separation determines where and for how long peak torque occurs in an engine's rpm range. 106 LSA: So, if I talk about the powerband at 106 LSA, the powerband is narrow. Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. That is why 106 LSA consumes less oil. The second cam would have a rougher idle, produce more torque and would rev quicker. All three terms are similar, as they all relate to the relationship between the centerline of the Intake lobe and the centerline of the Exhaust lobe. We will safeguard your e-mail and only send content you request. 07 Though the CNC-ported heads offered plenty of flow, it was necessary to upgrade the supplied valvesprings. The extra cubic inches will smooth out a rough idle in a 327. (You can find an instructional video of how to do just that on our Clay Smith Cams YouTube Channel;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s ). Introduction. It should still make close to 600hp and 600tq in my 512" stealth headed big block. Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. "When the low-pressure wave in the exhaust reflects into the intake, the pressure delta actually helps pull air and fuel into the cylinder. The article was called "Separation of Power" and they tested 5 cams ranged from 106 to 114 LSA. A cam with a 112 lobe center will idle smoother than a cam with a 110 lobe center. I just bought a 86b Webcam with 112 lobe centers for my 2276. pump gas, no additive's as well, runs good, i will put the highest octane in, which is 93.. If identical and for a given displacement the 110 will give more power. . To illustrate the differences offered by changes in the LSA, we had Crane cams grind us three cam profiles that shared the same lift and duration figures, but differed only in the LSA. Either learn to fix it, or learn to write checks. BUT, 114 will have more vacuum at idle, which will work better with some fuelinjection. Is a 108 Lobe Separation 2 Much? | Hot Rod Forum Good luck. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. 108* or narrower lobe separation angle (LSA) is "Narrow" and 114* or wider (up to 117* or 120* for stock cams) is "Wide" , with 110 to 112* being the "normal" hot-rod cam. 114 lsa cam sound clips | LS1LT1 Forum Camshaft Kits - 108 Lobe Separation (degrees) - Summit Racing camshaft is a Cranecams F238. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. On a tight lobe separation, like 106-108 degrees, the engine will build torque quickly and reach its peak early. Increasing the EGR effect has a good side in that it reduces the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber. Maybe even 114. lobe centers and lobe separation are 2 different things . Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. Before we all start suffering from separation anxiety, we need to understand what lobe separation angle actually is and then how it affects your engine. You can modify the lobe center a little bit but not enough to change the actual overlap of the grind. Aeromotive; 913.647.7300; AeromotiveInc.com, AFR Heads; 661.257.8124; AirFlowResearch.com, Federal Mogul/Felpro; 248.354.7700; FederalMogul.com, Mahle; 248.347.9700; Mahle-Aftermarket.com, Scat Enterprises; 310.370.5501 ScatEnterprises.com, SuperFlow Dynamometers and Flow Benches; 515.254.1654; SuperFlow.com. 110 LSA: On the contrary, it is pretty unpleasant to inform you that the efficient compression rate decreases at 110 LSA. A 112-114 degree lobe center will have a better idle and produce more vacuum with less overlap. The 30-30 Duntov is on the high end of the duration recommendation. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the RPM range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the RPM range. Lobe separation angles, he continues, are influenced by the camshaft grind. by farmer Mon May 12, 2003 3:14 pm, Post 09 All testing was run through a set of 1 3/4-inch long-tube headers and 3-inch exhaust. Overlap is the amount of time that both valves are open in the same cylinder. The lobe separation angle is a comprise of what the engine needs depending on the compression, combustion chamber, rpm, engine size, head volume, and many, many other variables. Every spec is a road map to what the valves are doing, the most common of which are lift, duration, and lobe-separation angle (LSA)the latter needing the most explanation. Comparison Table Between 106 Vs 110 Lobe Separation Angle. dont sound like a verry street friendly motor butany thoughts? 2023 Power Automedia. 292S-112: 292/292 - 240/240 - .495/.495 - 112* - 3400-7200. The standard bore block was then stuffed with a 4340 forged steel 4.0-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods, along with a set of flat-top, forged JE pistons. any input is appreciated guys, thanks. Lobe Seperation | Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum Because the lobes are closer together on the 101 LSA cam, the intake closing point is advanced (closes earlier) and the piston has more time to build compressionexactly what the gauge showed. O onovakind67 Registered Joined Dec 14, 2001 6,242 Posts This has been my long time understanding! One segment that truly benefits from a wider LSA is the marine marine market. Lobe separations gives lots of overlap and lobe centers just happens when the grinder decides how the peak of the lobe will arrive on a specific grind by their tooling. A wider lobe separation angle can often provide more power, but it can also lead to more wear on the engine. I also like the 106 lobe separation with the intake on 103. However, it is fixable. I believe you have got the idea of what you were seeking. These numbers can vary a few inches one way or the other, depending on several other aftermarket factors and your individual engine specifications, so you may want to check your vacuum once the cam is installed. Higher overlapping lets less oil fall through the oil inlet. by trmnatr Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:45 pm, Post LSA helps determine the cam's behavior; you can take a given set of lift and duration figures, change the LSA, and get cams with vastly different characteristics. 106 LSA: There is a scale of standard cranking compression of the engine. 02 The 402-inch stroker short-block combined an aluminum LS2 block with a 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods. Howards Cams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft and Lifter Kits CL120325-08. A wide lobe seperation is not always better than a narrow one, or vise versa. I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. 110 LSA: The 110 LSA shows up mechanically advantageous in mechanical aspects like higher RPM, lower engine knock, moderate cylinder pressure, improved idle vacuum, and higher piston-to-valve clearance. What brand and what are the specs on your cam, 4-linked72? 110 LSA: On the other hand, 110 LSA is a wider LSA with almost no overlap. or just enough to keep the neighbors pissed? The valve covers, valvetrain, intake manifold, harmonic balancer, front cover, timing set, and cam were yanked. ( 2 ) Estimated Ship Date: Feb 23, 2023 (if ordered today) Drop Ship. 06 The ported heads featured a 2.165/1.590-inch valve combo. Whatever you do, stay under 270 advertised duration and shoot for a 110 lobe separation. For large port heads like the CNC 044's which can use the extra lift 1.4's make a noticable difference. A few other major and, Read More Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When AcceleratingContinue, Your email address will not be published. It is the average centerline between both lobes and expressed in degrees ranging from 95 on the extremely narrow/tight side to upward of 120 on the wide end. This is very critical for manifold vacuum, throttle response, emissions, and gas mileage. The final, 108-degree cam stepped power up even further, with peaks of 572 hp at 6,300 rpm and 544 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm. On engines equipped with independent intake and exhaust cams, the LSA is adjustable. This table will create a map in your head, and I bet it will make your understanding crystal clear. These issues can often be worked through by an advanced tuner, but always present a challenge and compromise in tuning strategy. Lunati's New Bootlegger Camshaft Series Has Strong Race - Dragzine Lobe sepsration is an advanced description for overlap.If you take a cam on a 112,and grind it on a 108,you add more overlap,the time the valves are both open.Narrower lobe centers mean more low end and midrange torque,along with a peakier powerband,and a slightly rougher idle.Tradeoffs are sensitivity to octane ratings,total timing, and air fuel ratio.A lot to swallow I know,hope this helps you. Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. In reality, a cam with 220 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 112 will have the exact same mechanical overlap as a cam with 217 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 109. ~These are just some of the drawbacks weas guys who like to go mach 10 with our hair on fire and these little motors screaming at rpms that make other guys cryhave to deal with.~. If you drew a line that divided the intake lobe in half right at the point of maximum lift, then did the same to the exhaust lobe, then measured the distance in cam degrees between the two, that would be the lobe separation angle. Cylinder-head flow and LSA are directly related: as a rule of thumb, the better the head flows, the wider the LSA can be. Anybody here run a 108 LSA? Whats a good LOBE Separation for nitrous | Yellow Bullet Forums This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. Comp cam hydraulic roller lifters. A cam in the 110112 LSA range provides the necessary idle lobe to appease gearhead ears with acceptable manifold vacuum to run vacuum-operated accessories. The 112-degree cam offered nearly all the low-speed and mid-range torque of the 108 cam but the peak power suffered above 5,200 rpm. However, a cam with 108 will only pull 12-16", which is not enough for power assisted accessories. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? To establish the position of each lobe, the traditional reference point is where the lobes reach max lift. I would say 114-117* would be a normal 1960's stock cam range and 117* to 120* is more what we see on modern engines. The right camshaft choice | Hemmings Higher lift and longer duration profiles add power, but do so at higher engine speeds (especially true of duration). Not a HUGE, but a significant difference between 110 and 112, but those are the trends. Usually, an old gas tank is responsible for a vehicle bogging down during acceleration. Moreover, a user from the Chevelle forum said. This was science at work, and with data in tow, it was time to crunch the numbers and find out what was going on. LSA is a result of valve timing events. If that were the only consideration, the 101 cam is the clear winner. Methods: We evaluated 30 individuals with PD (62.47.2 years) and 22 age-matched healthy controls (61.06.4 years). The 108-degree cam offered both the most power and torque, but idle quality suffered compared to the wider LSAs. Vintage/Classic/Historical Engine Tech, 3V Performance Engine & Valve train Development, Race Cars & Parts - For Sale or Wanted. Equipped with the 120-degree (LSA) cam, the hybrid stroker produced 570 hp at 6,200 rpm and 535 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 rpm. Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. Lower cylinder pressure is advantageous for your engine. The 112-degree cam (red lines) picked up much of the torque, but the big winner was the cam with the tightest lobe separation angle. Mistakes that weaken a supercharger's performance Supercharged and nitrous race engines typically benefit from a wider LSA because they dont require as much overlap for exhaust scavenging as does the naturally aspirated engine, continues Bolander. He also enjoys reading books a lot and his favorite author is Paula Coelho. Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again. Around 70 percent of muscle-car performance cams fall into this range. You must log in or register to reply here. Big strokers like tighter LCA but it really depends on your combo and usage, theres great OTS cams but for a custom engine a custom cam is the way to go With identical cam lobes you won't see a bit of difference. A lower efficient compression rate leads to a higher fuel consumption rate by your engine to produce higher power. The taller lobe seperation will have a longer powerband but will have to rev higher to make the power than the lower lobe seperation! Is it a hydraulic roller as well? Re: Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110. The takeaway from this test is camshaft LSA is a double-edged sword. kinda off topic.. but while we're on the topic of cams, duration,lift,ect has anybody heard of using high compreshion (13:1) on pump gas, by useing alot of duration? (2002) et rappel sur une carte hors texte. This recommendation is only if you shift at no more than 7000. This may be of concern if you have vacuum assisted accessories, such as power brakes or steering. 108 is very tight producing lower vacuum and more of a 2 stroke "punch" powerband. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. If all the specs remained the same what will going from a 110 to a 112 lsa do to driving characteristics? Once more the engine came apart to install the third test cam, a 107 LSA. but less of it at the same time. Yearh, I have been reading a lot about this issue. i think a little more torque will be good for my car.With the XE274 it was a little slugish until around 3000 rpms. Lobe Separation Angle 110 Vs 112 - Truck Guider 106 LSA: As the 106 LSA is a tighter LSA, it fails to generate maximum power. Generally speaking, decreasing the lobe centerline angle increases overlap. It will have slightly higher vacuum at idle, feel smoother through the power curve but have a bit less midrange. Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. to use this representational knowledge to guide current and future action. The engine would idle a lot rougher and generate worse exhaust emissions largely because of unburned fuel.. This overlapping has a direct influence on the oil consumption rate of the engine. A forum community dedicated to hot rod owners and enthusiasts. Myoinositol reduction in medial prefrontal cortex of obsessive The tightest LSA (101) was worth 21.5 lb-ft of torque and a much broader powerbandat the cost of much lower idle vacuum, which would make it more temperamental in a street car. How To Properly Replace Ignition Coils, Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About Them, Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When Accelerating. A 110-degree lobe separation angle means that the peak opening points of the intake and exhaust lobes are 110 degrees apart. Brul spun the engine over with the dyno's starters and recorded 185 psi of cranking compression. It provides a spark plug with the high voltage needed for combustion. If the intake valve opens too early, it will push the new charge into the intake manifold. Aug 20, 2006. The lobe separation angle is the angle between the two camshaft lobes that act on the valves. Lucky for us, Brian Tooley Racing stepped up with a dual spring package that allowed us to safely run our 0.624-lift cam. This form of short-term memory is supported by the prefrontal cortex (PFC) and is believed to rely on the ability of selectively tuned pyramidal neuron networks to persist in firing even after a to-be-remembered stimulus is removed from the environment. As boost increases, the air will be forced through the cylinder, vs. being trapped in the cylinder. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. turbo camshafts lobe centers and lobe separation . Cam timing plays an important role not only in the power generated but also the overall character of the powerplant. On larger displacement units 116 to 118 degrees of separation are common. The graph above compares intake valve closing points of the three cams used in the test. The 234o duration kind of eliminates the RV usage. JavaScript is disabled. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. 108 versus 110 will drive the power band down. A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. music to your ears? Do you like to go fast? The same is true for intake valve closing. When degreeing in the camshaft, you are making sure the intake centerline is precisely where the cam is intended to be. by Hoxviii Mon May 12, 2003 7:50 pm, Post its got a 3.73 posi and the Stock 4 speed with a very low 3.42 1st gear. LCA (lobe center angle) vs LSA (lobe seperation angle) Your best bet would be to talk to one of the experts at a cam company to get a custom grind if you're that into the specs. 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It is the DESIGNED events that yield CENTERLINE. 108: 110: 112: 114 . These favorable mechanical features depict the powerful acceleration capacity of the engine with higher oil and energy consumption rate, overheating problems, and other mechanical problems. In terms of horsepower, the disparity between all three cams was only 6.5 hp, with a scant 100 rpm separating the peaks. how much boost on a 110 lob sep cam vs 112 vs 114 So, sit tight back and explore. The absence of engine knocking ensures that your car engine is reasonably combusting the fuel. With minimal overlap and a steady manifold vacuum signal, they work great with fuel-injection systems and are the norm on modern pushrod engines, such as the LS and Gen III hemi. My lift will be about .580" intake and exhaust, with about 230/236 duration with a 1.7 rocker ratio, utilizing a Jesel shaft rocker system. If that accessory still does not assist the cam in producing enough vacuum, then as a last resort you can use a vacuum pump. I've heard similar cams (only about 5*'s off) and they have a nice rumble to them. It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. An icon used to represent a menu that can be toggled by interacting with this icon. Turbochargers are not as simple as they may sound; you may think of them only as power-boosting components. To overcome this inherent problem in wide LSA camshafts, you simply need a higher-flowing intake port. . 108 vs 112 LSA | Team Camaro Tech by xstfudonniex Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:21 pm, Post Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? - Don Terrill's Speed 106 LSA: At 106 LSA, the cylinder pressure is a bit higher. The takeaway is simple on the surface: A tighter LSA makes more low-end and peak torque at the expense of just a few top-end ponies. As you tighten the centers ( 108 ) the same engine will make MORE power through the mide range and top end. 110* LSA - lobe separation angle (lobe displacement angle) The +2* means your intake lobe centerline is advanced to obtain a 108* ICL - intake centerline and a 112* ECL - exhaust centerline. Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. Its also critical that valve overlap is kept to a minimum as the induction system can create a suction that pulls water into the motor, adds Bolander. I personally prefer to sacrifice the small amount more power for better idle quality. 108 Lobe Separation These are my motors specs 1979 - 347 Stroker 10:1 Compression Holley 670 Street Avenger or a Holley 650 (I have both) Roush 200 Cylinder Heads (minor head work) 1.6 Roller Rockers Shorty BBK Headers 373 Rear End 5 Speed Transmission Cross Gap Intake (Power Band 1500-6500) FlowMaster Dual Exhaust (of course no Cats) MSD 6Al 110 LSA: However, if you look at the rate of cranking compression at 110 LSA, you will find a reduced compression rate from the standard cranking compression PSI level. by flat4racer17 Tue May 13, 2003 9:12 pm, Post For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. But this is not the only reason. General topics - 76 LA built, CA car with m20. It is an important note you must keep; due to the lobe separation angle, there creates an overlapping of intake valve opening time and exhaust valve closing time and vice versa. 110 vs. 112 lobe seperarion on a cam - Chevy Message Forum And better gas mileage. As usual, Marc (aka Master) is correct. 1-4 It is one of the most common neurological disorders worldwide, 1-5 is among the most common . Again, these are general bits of conventional wisdom. But nothing comes without a cost, and idle vacuum suffers as LSA shrinks. Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main Culprit, Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything], Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? We borrowed Westech Performance's shop mule, a 370ci small-block Chevy and its SuperFlow 902 engine dyno and spent a day running each cam back-to-back to gauge its effect on peak horsepower, peak torque, cranking compression, idle vacuum, and the powerband as a wholeall the variables that define an engine's character on the street and track. While most of our customers know what lift and duration are, most are unfamiliar with the term Lobe Center and how it affects the engines performance. Let's just talk lobe sep angle. JavaScript is disabled. Camshafts with a substantial overlapping tendency should not be used in vehicles driven on public streets. But, the narrow or broad powerband choice varies from person to person. probably just enough to get me in trouble.. The only reason the advance or retard a camshaft profile is to get the timing events where they need to be. Next up was the 112-degree cam, which actually lost out in peak power slightly to the 120-degree cam, but offered considerably more torque. Epilepsy is a chronic noncommunicable brain (neurological) disorder associated with excessive neuronal activity and unprovoked seizures referred to as 'epileptic seizures' and sensory-motor deficits that cause neurobiological, cognitive, psychological, and social consequences to the patient.